At this morning’s Downtown Seattle Association’s Public Safety Forum, an interesting idea was put forward in response to a question about changing bar and nightclub closing times to 4am, or having staggered closing times. City Attorney Pete Holmes said he’s working on a package of ideas to support nighttime businesses and keep nightlife safe but thriving. One idea he’s considering is a move to staggered bar closing times instead of the mandated 2 am last call.
The theory is that by encouraging staggered closing times, the thousands of customers who roll out onto the street at am would be dispersed over the night. This would take pressure off of SPD, allowing them to do better, more focused enforcement. It would also help curb drunk driving (at 2 am there is little taxi cab availability due to the spiked demand for cabs with everyone settling up at the same time.) There would also be less concentration of noise on the streets at 2am solving one of the most frequent complaints from downtown residents. And of course with an increase in operating hours comes an increase in revenue (and jobs) for bars, and in turn, more revenue to the State and City.
Current State Liquor Laws mandating 2am closing for liquor licensees would need to be changed, but this would not take legislative action, and the program could be limited to Seattle for a limited test period.
In the US, many cities and states have already implemented staggered or extended liquor service hours. Birmingham, Alabama allows 24-hour liquor service along with Atlantic City, Memphis, parts of Miami, and all of Nevada and Louisiana, and some counties in Illinois.
And other states and cities now have expanded liquor service hours anywhere from 3:00 am (Tampa, Illinois, Indiana, New Jersey, Tennessee), 4:00 am (Hawaii, Broward County, Louisville KY, New York State) to 5:00 am (Alaska, the Jersey Shore).
In 2005, England and Wales started licensing 24 hour liquor establishments, and Scotland is now joining them. England has seen decreased in alcohol related crime and violence. New South Wales in Australia, Belgium, and Israel also have no mandated closing times.
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Do you mind clarifying the ideal staggering in Seattle? As in, some bars would close at 2, others at 3? If so, who decides who gets to stay open later?
Sam – there are several ways to do this. I believe San Diego has experimented with a rolling staggered closing time idea where bars can stay open til 4 am in a different neighborhood around the city. Sacramento allows bars to stay open until 3am, but stop serving at 2am. Many states mandate not closing times and instead allow municipalities to do so.
The idea floated at the forum this morning makes the case that if there is not a mandated closing time, the market will create closing times based on demands and type of business. So, for example, a bar/ restaurant like The 5 Point (which I own) that is already open 24 hours and serves from 6am – 2am would most likely extend it's hours to full time service. However, a live music club would most likely not stay open any later than it already does since the customers leave when the bands are done performing, and the bands won't perform longer than they currently do. A bar outside the downtown core probably wouldn't have enough demand to stay open past when they do now on weeknights, but could choose to stay open until 3am on weekends if the business was there.
So in the end, Seattle would have truly staggered closing times. Think of it how restaurants have very different hours depending on what the owner and the customers want.
I like it. I wonder where the strange 2am law came from. Too many people showing up drunk for work in the morning?
That restaurant example is misleading. Closer to the point, restaurants stay open as long as it makes economic sense to do so. As long as a nightlife district is full of paying drinkers, and hour restrictions don't exist, all of its bars will stay open to meet that demand — and music/event venues, in kind, will run their events later to sell more alcohol. I don't see “letting the market decide” ending any other way, and I have trouble trusting the theory that later operating hours, without restrictions at the city level, will turn out in elegantly staggered fashion. Issues of closing time crowd-clusters and noise would still remain.
Also, I'm curious how later operating hours for bars and nightclubs have affected police resources in relevant cities. What effect would such a late-night switch have on Seattle's disparate neighborhoods, as well? I've seen how creepy it gets around Greenwood and 85th when Yen Wor and Baranof let out at 2 a.m.; this pub district doesn't have a huge, consistent crowd at closing time, and giving that zone extra time means another hour or two of drunks in a lightly policed neighborhood. Do you propose neighborhood-specific changes? If so, are those feasible?
Go forward but don't mess with the sacred 6 am. Embarrasingly somewhat, I live in a town that stops at 11 pm (result is cricket sounds) but then i'm not in my twenties however I like to think that Seattle will be there and operating the best it can when I stop over.
So I live in the stark contrast region of absolute caution where things close at 11 pm resulting in quickly vanishing businesses/jobless, increase in assaults and robbery, according to the local paper.. So extending the hours gradually or staggered is a good start, wins for patrons and commerce.
“Closer to the point, restaurants stay open as long as it makes economic sense to do so.”
As do bars and clubs.
“As long as a nightlife district is full of paying drinkers, and hour restrictions don't exist, all of its bars will stay open to meet that demand”
And as long as paying eaters are out, restaurants will stay open, but what we see is that from 10pm on, the number of people out dwindles until about lunchtime the next day. So most restaurants close after 10, with only a few staying open for a complete 24 hours a day. Bars will be no different.
“…and music/event venues, in kind, will run their events later to sell more alcohol.”
you might think so only if you don't understand how live music venues operate. I have some experience in this area, and we can also look to other cities with 24 hour licenses – the fact is that live music won't go 24 hours, or even much later than it does now if at all. Dance clubs will, but again, only some of them. And that's exactly how the plan works and is the beauty of it – if not everything closes at the same time, there will be less problems than there are currently at 2am.
“Do you propose neighborhood-specific changes? If so, are those feasible?”
Right now there is no proposal, so no. But I'm sure this is something that will be considered and could probably be handled with zoning restrictions.
Again, from Birmingham Alabama to London, 24 hour licenses are being issued with mostly positive results. There will be many a fearmonger arguing against this proposal as there is with any proposed change, but there is a lot of upside to the idea.
We also need to consider what type of City we want to be. We could take the lead of great cities like Miami, London, New York, Chicago, etc, where nighttime businesses are encouraged and are thriving, or we could try to be an aging city with low tourism and heavily regulated nightlife. I think we can strike a great balance between a thriving nightlife and safety. We just need smart people having good dialogue.
They should auction off the permits to stay up later. This would help cover the cost of enforcement.
Oh…This is just great!! Some bars close at 2 AM, others close at 3, and others close at 4. So now we're just going to have a bunch of drunks hanging out for 2+ hours until all the bars close. Is Holmes insane? Maybe when he moves to Belltown from his quiet perch on Seward Park Ave South and puts up with the noise for a while he will be in a position to have an opinion about what is good for this city. I will take him much more seriously when he stops taking advice from Dave Meinert, who is in it for himself.
@maryeileen – keep in mind that this isn't a proposal, it's just an idea that is going to be studied. If it becomes a proposal it will be just a part of a larger set of nightlife regulations that could include a stronger noise ordinance, some kind of new public disturbance rules, possibly with a civil fine instead of criminal punishment that would allow cops to issue tickets instead of arresting people (swifter impact and according to studies is a better deterrent), Also more Police on the street, and better ideas on enforcement.
This is not a radical or new idea. It's something that's been done successfully in other cities, states and countries. It very well could be one more idea to make Belltown, and all of Seattle, a better place to live, attract more tourists, drive more revenue and jobs.
@save the city for himself, et. al. – I'm always fascinated by people who live in Belltown and complain about noise. If you like quiet, why don't you move to Seward Park? Plus, this discussion centers around the “revolutionary” idea that bars staying open later doesn't increase noise, it disperses it. In Alaska, where closing time is 5 a.m., people tend to go home sometime between 1:00 and 5:00. By closing time, there are just a few stragglers wandering out of the club. Do you imagine a roaring crowd on the streets at 5:00 instead of 2:30?
Also, the scariest time in Belltown is 3:00 – 6:00 a.m. – the “witching hour.” If there were more people on the streets and businesses open, at least the only humans out wouldn't be crackheads, homeless people and those of us who had very early jobs and took metro.
The license to stay open later should reflect the surrounding area, and an agreement between the bar their community.
Contrary to popular belief, savethecityfromitself, the world does not revolve around Belltown. There are other neighborhoods in this city with strong nightlife and many people who are tired of the broken policy of dumping 10,000 people onto the streets at 1:45 every Friday and Saturday night. It just doesn't work. If you look beyond yourself, and this city for that matter, you will see how staggering last call works in the other cities (see above) to disperse late night crowding and decrease violence. There will always be problem bars that will have to be held accountable for being bad neighbors–this wouldn't be any less true if last call was at 12 midnight.
The Woman's Christian Temperance Union and supporters of prohibition created all sorts of laws in the early 20th Century that many of our states are still observing today. No windows in bars, no sales of alcohol on election days, no alcohol sales in doughnut shops, no spirits tastings, hidden mixing stations, no selling alcohol on Sunday, government run liquor stores (imagine that!) and last but not least = last call.
You want quiet? Or the sound of chirping birds? Go live in Seward Park Ave. South. You want street noise and bars and nightlife? Live in Belltown. I love the hipsters who rent/buy where the 'action' is. The thriving hub of Seattle's pulsing nightlife – steeped in a rich history of live music and diverse eateries and watering holes… Then they realize the downside of living near bars. Kinda like being the only sober one at a party, ain't it?
There are a lot of discrepancies in this thread.
All bars in CA stop serving at 2, just like in WA. What Hollywood and San Diego have done is to allow the clubs to stay open past that to certain times to adjust the flow of patrons away from the club districts without allowing any additional consumption. This has worked because the club owners have put an effort into making patrons WANT to stay past last call. When the clubs close is a somewhat arbitrary decision by the city planning department- not very fair.
Washington does not require bars to close at 2, only stop serving. Our nightlife can be just like SD or LA without any changes to the law, the difference is the industry making changes to the way they operate. The people pushing this always point to SD and LA but aren't honest about the fact that they already have more freedom than those cities.
Seattle's alternative is to just want to extend serving times. Nightlife and alcohol service go together but in world class nightlife cities the industry has found ways to keep patrons out for a few hours where they are enjoying themselves, sobering up, and still spending money. That's what we need here, not more booze. Ever been in any of the city's bar areas at closing? There is no problem with people getting enough alcohol by 2, quite the opposite.
On to the UK. Saying that going to 24 hour service has been a positive change is in great dispute. The true experts seem to be about 50/50 over whether it's great or a disaster. In all honesty there has not been enough time to tell with any valid studies. It will also be hard to relate back to WA because their bars used to close at 10 or 11. Our nightlife doesn't start til then so it's an apples/oranges comparison at best.
I should also point out this is a STATE law and there is very little support in Olympia to change that. Not what I want my City Attorney spending his time on- not your job Mr. Holmes.
If you can muster the support in Olympia and truly want the market to decide in a fair manner why not a system like New Orleans used to have where every liquor license gets a set number of 'service hours' per week or month and they can pick their spot in the market. It could be a challenge to enforce although I think the neighboring businesses would be calling each other in if there was much abuse.
Great idea.
As a resident of Pioneer Square I'd love to see the clubs begin to close at say, 10:00 PM and have everyone gone by midnight.
But seriously.
Dave Meinert opined:
“There would also be less concentration of noise on the streets at 2am solving one of the most frequent complaints from downtown residents. And of course with an increase in operating hours comes an increase in revenue (and jobs) for bars, and in turn, more revenue to the State and City.”
I might be willing to help clubs “increase revenue (and jobs) & more revenue…” if the clubs were a little more considerate when it comes to noise. While it's certainly true many complain about the noise patrons make when released at 2:00 AM the fact is that for residents in Pioneer Square for example noise is an evening long problem. In my building I can literally feel the dj playing music starting at 9:30 – 10:00 and finishing at 1:30 AM.
There presently is no legal mechanism to mitigate nightlife noise. Residents rely on the goodwill of club owners. We have been in contact with one club owner who is willing to take steps. Not all are as neighborly. Unlike construction noise which is strictly regulated the nightlife industry is not and until it is I would hesitate to support any of their suggestions which they claim would, in part help solve problem they continually avoid having to deal with.
Bars can stagger closings now. Just have to stop selling liquor at 2am….
Keeping bars open after last call significantly increases the cost of operations–bartenders, barbacks, security–when there are limited sales and lots of patrons.
Bars/restaurants and clubs are very different beasts. A neighborhood restaurant or bar that wants to sell to patrons after 2 AM–like the 5 Point or Sun Liquor–might not raise the same concerns as Aura or one of the other dance-club establishments near your home. While some club owners may not be proactive neighbors, to say that bars are not regulated is grossly inaccurate. Most people involved with this issue will tell you it is usually the street noise that is the problem, and not the music. Street noise, as well as drinking-related violence, has been reduced in other cities where the law no longer prematurely stop liquor sales.
Nuisance laws should be a part of the City Attorney's package to make sure that dance clubs, like the one below you, are not allowed to keep you up at night. However, of all people, you should know from first hand experience that dumping 10,000 people onto the streets at 1:45 AM is not a recipe for success. Allowing law-abiding bars (and restaurants) to apply for a later serving licenses (obviously contingent on good behavior) is step in the right direction of encouraging our nighttime economy and getting people (with their eyes) to be on the street and therefore keeping our streets safer–not the dead-zone they are now between 3 and 6 every night.
I don't see how a 2 AM last call in California gives bar owners in LA any more freedom than we have here today. Again, keeping bars/clubs open after last call is very costly, and while some places in California may work to attract late night crowds, there is simply little profit motivation to do so if you cannot sell your product and are still required to sink the costs of staff/entertainment/security.
You mention world class nightlife cities, and aside from the exception I take with the useless term “world class”, when I think of cities with vibrant nightlife, I think of New York, Chicago, Miami and international destinations like Barcelona. None of these places have a 2 AM last call–and in some cases allow some bars to serve all night.
I don't disagree with what you write at all. Hours of operation aren't my concern. In fact people on the street is wonderful.
Noise is the problem I'd like addressed. And if longer hours of operation adds to club owner's bottom line then they can spend a little money to sound-proof.
Firstly, the city should get off it's can and actually write a noise ordinance which addresses nightlife.
how is a sea of drunk people going to keep our streets safer?
what's really the issue? the bars close at 2am. keeping them open later will ultimately help exacerbate our nations drinking problem. enjoy the crazy beauty that is life with some sobriety please.
i don't care what the issue is here, later bar times, and 24 hour alcohol access, is not near the answer. there is only fake vitality in those early morning drunken hours.
it is understandable to want to strive to create a vibrant nightlife in your city, but to construct this idea on the shoulders of a thousand intoxicated residents is not stable, and definitely not unique.
This is a great idea. Most people do not arrive at a nightlife location until after 10pm or 11pm, so it allows them to more slowly enjoy their beverage and it allows for those people who don't get off work until that time to have a few hours to have a couple of drinks and still sober up. Not everyone works a 9am to 5pm shift, folks. I regularly see people walk into a Seattle club or bar late to slam drinks quickly before cut off. This extended and staggered serving times would minimize this unhealthy behavior and allow for the market to adjust to real demand — which of course exists. It is ludicrous to think that people are just going to keep drinking and never stop just because the serving hours are extended.
I am very interested to understand more fully how this type of change can occur without legislative action.
t’s such a important site. imaginary, very stimulating!!!
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Gry
Im bored) lets play three word story =)
Three word story is a game in which a story is built by multiple people, who use three words each turn. It is a common favorite of forum gamers, since it is easy to explain and play in a linear, structured fashion. An example game goes as follows:
* A fat man…
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ok =)?
Ill begin:
I opened the door…