Check out Hugeasscity's Q&A With David Miller

By Erica C. Barnett, Thursday, July 30, 2009 at 3:40 PM
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miller2

Miller (center)

Dan Bertolet over at Hugeasscity has a great post up asking city council candidate David Miller some fundamental questions about density, development, and whether Miller (a neighborhood and tree activist from Maple Leaf) supports transit-oriented development in the neighborhoods.

The questions themselves are smart (if a little looooooooooooong), but what makes the post great is that Miller answers thoughtfully and at great length—and in ways that don’t necessarily acquit him of charges that he’s a NIMBY.

Question: You said that “we need to do upzones.”  Please give some examples of specific locations in Seattle that you believe should be upzoned.  And not upzones that would be contingent on meeting this or that precondition, but upzones that you believe should be enacted now.  Would you support upzoning single-family to multifamily anywhere in the City, and if yes, where?

Miller:  I don’t think any upzones should be done without preconditions, particularly for preservation of affordable housing, creation of affordable housing, etc. Seattle has been too quick to give away bonuses with too little in return. Anywhere in the downtown core except along Western, Northgate, in most cases at the center of urban centers and urban villages.

Question: You said that “We also differ in that I do not believe density is automatically affordable…”   Sorry David, because that is nothing but a classic straw man argument.  I have never said that, and neither has the vast majority of people who advocate for urban density.  But perhaps you could explain how preventing high-density housing by only allowing low-density housing will do anything but make housing less affordable?  High-density housing is inherently more affordable because it uses less land, materials, and infrastructure, and it also has the law of supply and demand on its side.  Go to any neighborhood and compare the price of the average single-family house to the price of the average condo.

Miller: If we define “affordable” most simply as a unit costing less than the average price for the area — features and size held constant — explain to me why any meaningful number of developers would give up his/her profit margin to build an affordable unit? They won’t, unless they are encouraged to or subsidized. The only time you get units less than average price (”affordable”) from developers on their own is when you have a housing market deflation. You’ll get a relative few at the end of each bubble, and then developers will simply stop building the N+1 unit that would have been affordable. Simple Econ 101 supply & demand curves (build more widgets, price gets cheaper) don’t work on land use. We have to be more creative than that.

Question: Completing the straw man, you added that “We also differ in that I do not believe density is… automatically environmentally sound.”  While there are examples of high-density housing that is not as green as it could be, in the vast majority of cases high-density housing is greener because it uses less land, materials, resources, energy, and infrastructure, and also because it is a critical ingredient for enabling alternatives to the single-occupant vehicle.  Do you disagree?

Build a city people don’t want to live in and you get urban sprawl. Build a city with a continuing shrinkage of urban tree canopy, and the average Seattleite moves into the ‘burbs, not to mention we’ll be violating our responsibilities under the endangered species act. High density housing in our urban villages and centers is the way we can have our cake and preserve our in-city environment, too. I’ve met more than a few “environmentalists” who believe we should eliminate SF housing in Seattle. The resulting increase in impermeable surface and loss in tree canopy would destroy our urban watersheds and make it impossible to save Elliott Bay, Lake Union, and Lake Washington — even with < 1 car/HH and the best bus system in the world. So the answer is obviously somewhere between what we have now and that extreme. My answer is build in the urban villages and centers and leave the SF areas largely alone to preserve environment.

Read the whole thing here.

  • ivan
    Listen to the sore loser whine. Democracy was practiced, and you didn't like the outcome. Either you think people who live in a smaller city, or a neighborhood in a large city, should have some say about the future of their neighborhoods, or not.

    I take no personal credit for stopping this bill. I don't need to. The opposition to it was far much more widespread and broad-based than you can imagine.

    And yes, I am the same Ivan you think I am. I do not give a rip if this particular bill affected me personally or not. What does that have to do with anything? I believe in full marriage rights for gay people even though I am not gay, and I believe in absolute reproductive rights for women even though I do not have a vagina or a uterus.

    I know bad public policy when I see it, and I lobby against it, just as I lobby for what I think is good public policy. I am just a citizen, performing my civic duty.

    And yes, I am an asshole, and I'm proud of it. I'm not asking you to like it.
  • Murgen
    Indeed, I guess I did have some details wrong -- my apologies, because I thought you were a different Ivan, who lives in the 34th district, which contains unincorporated areas and rural Vashon Island -- neither of which the bill would apply to. My bad. Glad you aren't that guy -- what an asshole I've heard he is!

    But the bill also wouldn't have applied to rural, unincorporated King County, either -- only those areas that actually possess a Sound Transit station --so I still don't understand the anger and vehemence you feel, since there's no chance that you'd have been impacted in the least by the proposal.

    Contrary to your protestations, the bill would indeed have dealt with sprawl (or at least intended to do so), by rewarding and requiring density (as well as attempting to protect affordability), rather than allowing developers to build whatever sprawling bullshit $750k McMansions (or ugly dinky-ass $750k townhouses, for that matter) they choose in these areas where we should be maximizing the ability of lower- and moderate-income folks to live, especially due to the increase in property values almost solely due to our taxpayer dollars creating a new public amenity.

    And I agree that they attempted to have a principled debate in the legislature, "where it belonged", as you indicate. So why all the hand-wringing from the neighborhood types (including you) about the lack of process or preseason "vetting" or being excluded from the discussion? You can't have it both ways, try as you might -- was there a good process or not? You seem to feel that you won, so that's good, right?

    But you do crack me up with your "All the President's Men" conspiracy theories about "follow the money . . . to insider developers" -- is that why the realtors, the residential developers (BIAW), the commercial developers (NIOP) and Vulcan all vehemently opposed the bill, as well as Mayor Nickels? Seems to me that they are a pretty good "who's who" of those who'd benefit if your accusations were anything but paranoid delusions. Great allies you got on this issue, Ivan, real paragons of progressiveness! Way to let them get you to do their bidding for them!

    And the reason that, despite your close study of the bill and process, your keen intellect couldn't find any enforcement language is because THERE WASN'T ANY. No sanctions, no penalties, no black helicopters! My understanding is that this was going to be fleshed out in the "give and take" of the legislative process, but the developers, NIMBY neighborhood activists, and business-as-usual suburban cities carpet bombed things before that discussion was even engaged in. And even once the bill got amended down to a shadow of its former self, so that it only applied to a small handful of the future light rail stations (mostly on the Eastside, where sprawl and unaffordability are the nauseating norm), hysterical paranoids like you were still unwilling to offer solutions, only throw Molotov cocktails and wail about being overrun in the unfair process. So much for democracy being practiced toward a constructive result.

    Another point that you have absolutely correct is that the organizations and individuals who were supporters of the bill (of which I count myself, obviously) did assume that the bill would do everything they hoped it would do. Such is the way of participatory citizen democracy -- that's why you get bills drafted, last time I checked. You develop an idea you think is worthwhile (often wrongly) that you think is going to do some good (often wrongly) and assume that others will participate in the process in good faith (often wrongly) to develop a final piece of legislation that hits that sweet spot of policy and politics that (even when folks have to agree to disagree about some of the details) results in something positive for a majority of folks. Yeah, I know, that's probably hopelessly naive, especially to a seasoned political veteran such as yourself, but it is the way it is supposed to work, eh what? The sad thing is that if some form of policy on affordability and density is NOT enacted at the state level, local jurisdictions will just continue to bend over for their local developers and allow them to do whatever they damned well please, until these geographic areas whose value have been dramatically enhanced by public transit subsidy are no different than any other neighborhood, except maybe LESS affordable to those who actually need to ride public transit because they can't afford to own a car or home and hope to rent a studio near public transit. But the needs of those folks have been trampled in the sanctimonious outpourings of the single-family housing owners and developers, and the petty local politicians who dance to their myopic tune.

    So congratulations! Keep giving yourself a hernia taking excessive personal credit for your efforts on how "we killed" it -- I'm sure that you were strategically key and personally instrumental in the work in opposition to the bill, along with all those who stand to make a killing in real estate speculation due to the furtherance of the economic status quo! Just declare victory, keep patting yourself on the back with that ego Viagra, and walk away, you big winner!
  • ivan
    Yeah, Murgen, it's so wonderful that you have me so pigeonholed, and that you have characterized me so throughly, and so thoroughly WRONG.

    In the first place, I don't live in any area of any city. I live in rural unincorporated King County. Don't you think I give a shit about sprawl in rural areas? Of course I do. There's no evidence that this bill, even if it had become law, would have limited sprawl, even though its supporters stated that it would as if it were a matter of faith.

    In the second place, there was plenty of principled debate on this issue -- in the Legislature, where it belonged. Legislators who represented smaller cities all over King and Pierce Counties heard almost overwhelming opposition to this bill from those city governments. Don't tell me democracy wasn't practiced. I watched the hearings.

    Why do you think that was? You know why. Don't play dumb with me with your talk about "(quite innocently) intended to preserve and promote affordability and density." While you lot were prating on about density -- as if it were a cure for cancer -- and global warming, others of us were following the money.

    We saw it going to insider developers and the "right" nonprofits while local land-use and zoning policies were overridden by state law, with enforcement "sanctions" left unstated and open-ended. There was nothing "innocent" about this bill if you were an owner-occupant of a single-family home within half a mile of any small city's "transit center" anywhere in the state.

    Don't give me this crap about "especially once the bill was amended to take into account a number of the criticisms posed." I followed every single markup of this bill every single day on leg.wa.gov -- every single amendment. The enforcement language was never dealt with at any step of the process.

    If you don't believe that, go there yourself and read it. It's all there.

    You yourself admitted it -- there was very little thought given to the effect this bill would have on many people in many ways. Its backers just ASSUMED that this bill would do everything they HOPED it would do, and that everyone should be so GRATEFUL to them.

    I don't give a shit if you think I'm "puerile." I have been called worse by better. But "impotent?" Hardly. We killed this motherfucking bad bill stone cold dead, didn't we now? But nice projection, eh what?
  • Murgen
    Ivan @ 21, you are absolutely right on one point -- as Rep. Nelson indicated, there should have been more preliminary conversation with folks who might have been impacted. There certainly was a lack of anticipation about who would be concerned about this bill, which (quite innocently) intended to preserve and promote affordability and density, rather than allow the gentrification and sprawl that have become the norm in Puget Sound, and which will be accelerating with the construction of light rail.

    Even more unexpected was the level of uninformed, vitriolic, and hateful rhetoric about the proposal, rather than any effort by opponents such as yourself to engage in a civil or principled discussion of the issues. It frankly makes your plea for "democracy" a little hollow.

    What surprised and amazes me the most, as epitomized by both you and Mr. Miller, is the passion among Seattleites for protecting the sprawl in suburban and rural areas from the evils of density and affordable housing, especially once the bill was amended to take into account a number of the criticisms posed.

    What Mr. Miller demonstrated in his testimony at Sally Clark's hearing (thanks for the link @16) was exactly what I said -- demonstrating an encylopedic knowledge of the details of an issue, without any effort whatsoever to apply them in a fashion that would constructively move forward or find opportunities for compromise or common ground. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit, I suppose, and hope that folks get lost in all the teeeeeeeny-tiny details of your arguments and walk away in frustration. That seems to me to be "The Seattle Way" of processing everything to death at its very, very worst!

    BTW, Ivan, thanks for the junior-high-quality tantrum, to help prove my points about the bill's NIMBY opponents. Such a productive and intellectually-nuanced analysis of the issues!

    What I enjoy the most, Ivan, is that since the bill wouldn't even have applied to the area of the city in which you live, you can't even aspire to grasp to the level of "NIMBY" status, just that of a puerile and impotent meddler.
  • ivan
    Josh @ 20:

    You bet your ass I have, in no uncertain terms. I told her she had been taken for a ride and left hung out to dry by dumb-ass enviros who had no clue how their dumb-ass bill would play outside of King County.

    She admitted they hadn't vetted it properly and told me she'd never make such a mistake again. Suburban cities HATED this bill. Rural Democrats LOATHED it. I don't need to tell you how the Republicans felt about it. it was easy-peasy for them to amend it to death.

    Sharon and I just now today got done two hours of sign-waving and handing out lit for Dow. We're cool.
  • Ivan,

    Have you told Rep. Sharon Nelson (D-34) what you think of her bill?
  • ivan
    Murgen @ 15:

    The bill to which you refer was one of the worst turds ever shit in Olympia. It would have overridden almost all local control of zoning and land use, and it is no wonder that most cities lobbied hard against it.

    Who the bloody hell are YOU to say that Miller didn't "use his powers for good?" What might be "good" to you might be elitist, top-down governance to others. "Good" in Miller's case just might be to give the people who live in a neighborhood some say over that neighborhood's future.

    Call it "knee-jerk NIMBYism" if you want to. Some of us call it democracy. I'm for Miller, and he's going to win.
  • Guest
    @ 17:

    Such language. :)

    My point is not about the Hugeasscity post, but rather every post in every blog that David seems compelled to reply to. It is fine to reply to significant issues. But responding to all posts and in 20 paragraphs on a regular basis (and frankly, not really saying much in those 20 paragraphs) is a problem.

    As I said, do you see Nick Licata, Sally Clark, Richard Conlin, Mike O'Brien, Marty Kaplan, etc responding to posts (with the exception of the HAC post)?
  • Observing
    F Buncher @ 10:

    Nice. HAC puts up an incredibly long post, daring David Miller to respond. He does, with all the detail and thought possible given the fact that he is (I'm sure) very busy running a campaign and talking with people who probably haven't closed their minds as completely as you have, and then you criticize him for taking the time to respond? Sounds like someone truly hasn't "left the playground" - and it's not David.

    I'll be donating to him, and I encourage everyone whose heads aren't stuck up a horse's ass to do the same.
  • Guest
    Murgen @ 15:
    Great point - starting at 80:50
  • Murgen
    Mr. Miller had the opportunity to put his much-vaunted expertise into action constructively during this year's intense legislative and local debate about state legislation on transit-oriented development. As folks may recall from the excellent coverage both Publicola and EBC at the Slog provided, this legislation would have promoted some of the nation's strongest requirements for affordability and density. Mr. Miller, despite his apparent land use genius that previous posters have touted, chose to use the opportunity (the one I recall most clearly was at the community forum organized by Sally Clark) to (quite literally) stomp his feet and whine against the legislation, without offering any constructive alternatives or ideas. That sure strikes me as a pretty good impression of a knee-jerk NIMBY. He came across as one of those really-smart guys who chooses to use his encyclopedic substantive knowledge to obfuscate the issues and prevent movement forward in any direction other than the one he desires, rather than using his powers for good.
  • people first
    @13: They're called "people with dwarfism" now.
  • Guest
    Actually, ivan @ 11 & 12, O'Brien is not my first choice. And, yes, I agree, David Miller is a dwarf.
  • ivan
    Sorry about the formatting screwup. I'll try to be more careful.
  • ivan
    @ 10:

    You should get down on your knees and thank whoever or whatever you pray to that we have a candidate with David Miller's commitment to understanding the issues in such depth, and a work ethic to match.

    When you say:

    Others of us, however, are very concerned about how Seattle will grow in the future and fear that David would have a negative impact on our environmental future.


    You really mean:

    Others of us, however, are very concerned about how Seattle will grow in the future and fear that David would have a negative impact on our environmental AGENDA.

    You are entitled to push your agenda, but you are not entitled to your desired outcome. Miller is going to win this race, because he simply brings more knowledge and more energy to this race than whoever your guy is (presumably O'Brien).

    It became apparent to me some time ago that the race for Position 8 is Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, and the voters will catch on soon enough.
  • Guest
    JoshMahar @ 9 and others:

    You may love David Miller and you can vote for him. Others of us, however, are very concerned about how Seattle will grow in the future and fear that David would have a negative impact on our environmental future. And, we want to share our concerns with others before they vote in the primary election.

    And, if he would be elected to Council, David would not be able to spend so much time defending his positions. He would need to vote and move on and take any flack without feeling the need to spend hours writing about his thoughts on blogs. Do you see any Councilmembers or even any other candidates writing about themselves so much in any blogs?
  • JoshMahar
    This has gotten totally out of control. Obviously Miller has spent an insane amount of time studying land use and zoning and generally wants Seattle to grow, but in a responsible and environmentally sound manner. How can HACers really despise this guy so much?

    If anything, I worry that if elected Miller will kill himself from exhaustion working out the perfect solution on each and every new development project in Seattle.
  • Miller is a huge policy wonk and has unbelievable knowledge of the intricacies of land use & zoning in Seattle. The guy works with data for a living and deeply enjoys examining & analyzing data in intricate manners. This fact alone would make him an excellent addition to the land use committee (and helps explain his loooooong answers).
  • Trevor
    "High-density housing is inherently more affordable."

    This is not supported by any study I've seen. It is based on a sloppy use of a "supply and demand" ideology that does not take into account the way that zoning laws have made it impossible for new, truly affordable housing to be built without government subsidy. And it does not take into account the declining middle class, and with it the ways in which new development disproportionately targets middle and upper income earners.
  • I'm in love with urban density and wish we had some more, but I think Miller is absolutely correct that straightforward supply & demand is *not* a useful tool for understanding housing & land use. I'm also impressed with Miller's fluency on the issue. However, this bit points to a big problem in his politics land use politics generally:

    Miller: If we define “affordable” most simply as a unit costing less than the average price for the area — features and size held constant — explain to me why any meaningful number of developers would give up his/her profit margin to build an affordable unit? They won’t, unless they are encouraged to or subsidized.


    "Encouragement" and subsidies aren't the only two alternatives for getting affordable housing built in dense developments. They can also be *required*. Many jurisdictions across the country use inclusionary zoning to require a certain % of units to be affordable. That way there's a major public benefit to any & every upzone, rather than just a giveaway of profit to whoever happened to own the land.
  • Mr. X
    That's an utterly bogus argument - plenty of new units (many of which are vacant, I would add) have been and are being built in Seattle with the upzones that were undertaken with significant community involvement during a rather extensive neighborhood planning process.

    Quite a few Seattle neighborhoods have far exceeded their Comprehensive Plan growth targets (without concurrent improvements in transportation, open space, and other infrastructure), and very few are underperforming.
  • joshuadf
    So, Mr. X, if NIMBYs and lack of devlopment forces newcomers to move farther afield (as they surely do), just how green is that?
  • Mr. X
    Oh, and if upzones and redevlopment force poor people to move farther afield (as they surely do), just how green is that?
  • Mr. X
    Property owners do not have an intrinsic right to upzones, which enhance the value of the property being upzoned. There is a reason public benefits are often required when upzones are considered by DPD (granted, DPD is a joke these days, and do pretty much whatever developers - oops - I mean their "clients" ask).
  • kurisu
    No upzones without preconditions? Is David talking land use or talking with Iran?
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